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	<title>Comments on: Winters&#8217; Discontents</title>
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	<description>Culling my readers to a manageable elite since 2002.</description>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-80663</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I slightly recommend Kingsley Amis&#039;s short essay on Keats in What Became of Jane Austen?

Though in my edition there is a postscript: &#039;Whatever the detail of Keats&#039;s performance, this achievement is such that no one who has never thought him the greatest poet in the world, no matter for how brief a period, has any real feeling for literature.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I slightly recommend Kingsley Amis&#8217;s short essay on Keats in What Became of Jane Austen?</p>
<p>Though in my edition there is a postscript: &#8216;Whatever the detail of Keats&#8217;s performance, this achievement is such that no one who has never thought him the greatest poet in the world, no matter for how brief a period, has any real feeling for literature.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-80662</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-80662</guid>
		<description>118

Inconstant even in this the dead
heart of the matter: laughter &#124; no joy.
Thin veil of libel úp for bids. You are
wantonly obscure, man sagt. ACCESSIBLE  
traded as DEMOCRATIC, he answers
as he answers móst things these days &#124; easily. 
Except in thís one craft he shows himself
open to a fault, shaken by others’ weeping;
duty’s memorialist &#124; for the known-unknown 
servants of Empire – for such unburied:
the spirit’s gift upheld, impenetrable, 
the bone-cage speared by lilies of the veldt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>118</p>
<p>Inconstant even in this the dead<br />
heart of the matter: laughter | no joy.<br />
Thin veil of libel úp for bids. You are<br />
wantonly obscure, man sagt. ACCESSIBLE<br />
traded as DEMOCRATIC, he answers<br />
as he answers móst things these days | easily.<br />
Except in thís one craft he shows himself<br />
open to a fault, shaken by others’ weeping;<br />
duty’s memorialist | for the known-unknown<br />
servants of Empire – for such unburied:<br />
the spirit’s gift upheld, impenetrable,<br />
the bone-cage speared by lilies of the veldt.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Kilpela</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-6937</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Kilpela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-6937</guid>
		<description>Hey, Aaron, just came across your web site, which I haven&#039;t run across any of the various times I have searched on google about Winters.  I have a Yvor Winters site, www.msu.edu/`kilpela that you might find interesting, and a new blog on Winters on blogger that I am just getting started with.  Drop a comment if you get the urge.  I hope you get this message.  I couldn&#039;t figure out any other way to say hello through this page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Aaron, just came across your web site, which I haven&#8217;t run across any of the various times I have searched on google about Winters.  I have a Yvor Winters site, <a href="http://www.msu.edu/" rel="nofollow">http://www.msu.edu/</a>`kilpela that you might find interesting, and a new blog on Winters on blogger that I am just getting started with.  Drop a comment if you get the urge.  I hope you get this message.  I couldn&#8217;t figure out any other way to say hello through this page.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Haspel</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-2074</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Haspel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-2074</guid>
		<description>I read the &lt;i&gt;City Journal&lt;/i&gt; piece John, and although its author is inclined to give Emerson the benefit of the doubt, as it is Dewey he is really after, he acknowledges the conspicuous strain of relativism and anti-intellectualism in Emerson&#039;s thought:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;Still, we cant entirely absolve Emerson of culpability for our educational debacle. In his writing he laid himself open to the misreadings of Dewey and the progressive educators.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;He flirted with the freedom of absolute relativism. &#039;Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this,&#039; he asserted somewhat casually in &#039;Self-Reliance.&#039; He dreamed of a let-it-all-hang-out liberation. The &#039;only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it,&#039; he held, and went on to vapor about &#039;the sacred germ of [a mans] instinct,&#039; which was &#039;not inferior but superior to his will.&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Winters knew Emerson&#039;s work very well, and admired him, to a degree, as a poet. But he is less concerned with Emerson the man than Emerson the influence, and as an influence, as the article you linked also points out, Emerson was very bad indeed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
David: Since you asked, from &lt;i&gt;Forms of Discovery&lt;/i&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;John Keats offers melancholy for the most part unexplained, melancholy for its own sake, combined with detail which is sensuous as regards intention but which is seldom perceived with real clarity. There is almost no intellect in or behind the poems; the poems are adolescent in every respect. Most readers of our time and for some generations have encountered Keats when they were young, have been touched by his unfortunate history, and have formed their taste on his poetry at a time when they knew little other poetry for comparison, and their feeling about him is immovable; they cannot imagine that he might be a bad poet.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He offers some highly qualified praise to &lt;i&gt;Ode on a Grecian Urn&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;To Autumn&lt;/i&gt;, and has some merciless fun at the expense of &lt;i&gt;Ode to a Nightingale&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Ode on Melancholy&lt;/i&gt;.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read the <i>City Journal</i> piece John, and although its author is inclined to give Emerson the benefit of the doubt, as it is Dewey he is really after, he acknowledges the conspicuous strain of relativism and anti-intellectualism in Emerson&#8217;s thought:</p>
<p>&quot;Still, we cant entirely absolve Emerson of culpability for our educational debacle. In his writing he laid himself open to the misreadings of Dewey and the progressive educators.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;He flirted with the freedom of absolute relativism. &#8216;Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this,&#8217; he asserted somewhat casually in &#8216;Self-Reliance.&#8217; He dreamed of a let-it-all-hang-out liberation. The &#8216;only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it,&#8217; he held, and went on to vapor about &#8216;the sacred germ of [a mans] instinct,&#8217; which was &#8216;not inferior but superior to his will.&#8217;</p>
<p>Winters knew Emerson&#8217;s work very well, and admired him, to a degree, as a poet. But he is less concerned with Emerson the man than Emerson the influence, and as an influence, as the article you linked also points out, Emerson was very bad indeed.</p>
<p>David: Since you asked, from <i>Forms of Discovery</i>:</p>
<p>&quot;John Keats offers melancholy for the most part unexplained, melancholy for its own sake, combined with detail which is sensuous as regards intention but which is seldom perceived with real clarity. There is almost no intellect in or behind the poems; the poems are adolescent in every respect. Most readers of our time and for some generations have encountered Keats when they were young, have been touched by his unfortunate history, and have formed their taste on his poetry at a time when they knew little other poetry for comparison, and their feeling about him is immovable; they cannot imagine that he might be a bad poet.&quot;</p>
<p>He offers some highly qualified praise to <i>Ode on a Grecian Urn</i> and <i>To Autumn</i>, and has some merciless fun at the expense of <i>Ode to a Nightingale</i> and <i>Ode on Melancholy</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Haspel</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-2076</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Haspel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-2076</guid>
		<description>Winters can be pretty funny. He quotes this stanza from &lt;i&gt;Ode on Melancholy&lt;/i&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then glut thy sorrow on a morning rose,&lt;br /&gt;
  Or on a rainbow of the salt sand-wave,&lt;br /&gt;
    Or on the wealth of globed peonies;&lt;br /&gt;
Or if thy mistress some rich anger shows,&lt;br /&gt;
  Emprison her soft hand and let her rave,&lt;br /&gt;
    And feed deep, deep upon her peerless eyes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
His only comment is, &quot;Gray&#039;s youth to fame and fortune unknown appears to have evaded all restraints.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From &lt;i&gt;Nightingale&lt;/i&gt; he cites the awful bit where men sit and hear each other groan and youth grows pale and spectre-thin and dies, and says Keats &quot;succeeds in making human misery the matter of unintentional comedy.&quot; He thinks the best writing in Keats is in &lt;i&gt;Grecian Urn&lt;/i&gt;, but that &lt;i&gt;To Autumn&lt;/i&gt; is the most successful complete poem.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Winters can be pretty funny. He quotes this stanza from <i>Ode on Melancholy</i>:</p>
<p>Then glut thy sorrow on a morning rose,<br />
  Or on a rainbow of the salt sand-wave,<br />
    Or on the wealth of globed peonies;<br />
Or if thy mistress some rich anger shows,<br />
  Emprison her soft hand and let her rave,<br />
    And feed deep, deep upon her peerless eyes.</p>
<p>His only comment is, &#8220;Gray&#8217;s youth to fame and fortune unknown appears to have evaded all restraints.&#8221;</p>
<p>From <i>Nightingale</i> he cites the awful bit where men sit and hear each other groan and youth grows pale and spectre-thin and dies, and says Keats &quot;succeeds in making human misery the matter of unintentional comedy.&quot; He thinks the best writing in Keats is in <i>Grecian Urn</i>, but that <i>To Autumn</i> is the most successful complete poem.</p>
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		<title>By: David Fiore</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-2075</link>
		<dc:creator>David Fiore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-2075</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the info Aaron,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I had a feeling there might be a coolness (to say the least) &#039;tween Yvor &amp; young Master Keats...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;ll try to get a hold of &lt;i&gt;Forms of Discovery&lt;/i&gt;--but I doubt it will convince me that &lt;i&gt;Ode to a Nightingale&lt;/i&gt; is a bad poem... (after all-I did swipe the title for my novel from it!) Of course, like most people (including, it seems, Winters himself?), my favourite of the odes has always been &lt;i&gt;To Autumn&lt;/i&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dave
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the info Aaron,</p>
<p>I had a feeling there might be a coolness (to say the least) &#8216;tween Yvor &#038; young Master Keats&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll try to get a hold of <i>Forms of Discovery</i>&#8211;but I doubt it will convince me that <i>Ode to a Nightingale</i> is a bad poem&#8230; (after all-I did swipe the title for my novel from it!) Of course, like most people (including, it seems, Winters himself?), my favourite of the odes has always been <i>To Autumn</i>&#8230;</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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		<title>By: David Fiore</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-2073</link>
		<dc:creator>David Fiore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2004 03:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-2073</guid>
		<description>I pretty much agree with everything John Hinchey has to say here...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m as opposed to ridiculous, over-the-top Romantic ranting as anyone (that&#039;s why I applaud Winters&#039; excoriation of Poe and love what he has to say about Hart Crane--minus the talk about his &quot;bad mentor&quot;). I just think Yvor picked on the wrong guy when he went after Emerson... I&#039;m totally with Winters when he goes after the &quot;southern Agrarians&quot; too!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as an aside Aaron--do you know what Winters thought of Keats?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I haven&#039;t come across much on &quot;Mr. Negative Capability&quot; himself in the criticism I&#039;ve read. Needless to say, he&#039;s my favourite of the romantic poets...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dave
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I pretty much agree with everything John Hinchey has to say here&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m as opposed to ridiculous, over-the-top Romantic ranting as anyone (that&#8217;s why I applaud Winters&#8217; excoriation of Poe and love what he has to say about Hart Crane&#8211;minus the talk about his &quot;bad mentor&quot;). I just think Yvor picked on the wrong guy when he went after Emerson&#8230; I&#8217;m totally with Winters when he goes after the &quot;southern Agrarians&quot; too!</p>
<p>Just as an aside Aaron&#8211;do you know what Winters thought of Keats?</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t come across much on &quot;Mr. Negative Capability&quot; himself in the criticism I&#8217;ve read. Needless to say, he&#8217;s my favourite of the romantic poets&#8230;</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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		<title>By: John Hinchey</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-2072</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hinchey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-2072</guid>
		<description>Aaron:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;Emotion&quot; is not the same as &quot;impulse,&quot; &quot;intuition,&quot; or as Emerson once impishly put it, &quot;whim.&quot; Emotion, in fact, meant little to Emerson; indeed his own emotional coldness (and that of his poetry) is generally regarded as one of his major shortcomings. Emerson himself often felt uneasy at the thinness of his own emotional life, but he was never moved actually to do anything about it.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, the intuition he championed is an intuition educated and disciplined by a constant, hyperattentive inspection of one&#039;s own mind. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Winters version of Emerson is a caricature--and a caricature of someone other than the actual Emerson to boot. (A superb caricature of the actual Emerson can be found in Melville&#039;s The Confidence-Man.) As it happens, I read a piece yesterday--courtesy of Arts &amp; Letters Daily--that suggests to me where Winters may have gotten his pseudoEmerson: from John Dewey. The piece is also a good short intro to Emerson--or to a central aspect of his thinking--and I would recommend taking a look at it.:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_self_reliance.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Emerson is fascinating to read (in part) because he is always struggling with his own ideas. His aphorisms are often misleading taken out of the context of his writing. His famous early essays--the Divinity School Address, Self Reliance, etc.-- are themselves pretty one-sided but his journals never are and his best essays--e.g. &quot;Experience&quot;--are dizzying in their dialectical nimbleness. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the long run, the master term in Emerson is not even impulse; it is power, the power of fresh life. Such power is the  ultimate quest of his famous self-reliance. This is what drew Nietzsche to him. (All of Nietzsche&#039;s major terms derive from an Emersonian vocabulary, though Nietzsche sometimes confuses--as Emerson never does--power of self with power over others.) &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finally, Emersonian power of self  has many possible manifestations--see his Representative Men for a sampling--but in Emerson himself it took an almost exclusively intellectual/literary form--because that&#039;s the sort of guy he was.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron:</p>
<p>&quot;Emotion&quot; is not the same as &quot;impulse,&quot; &quot;intuition,&quot; or as Emerson once impishly put it, &quot;whim.&quot; Emotion, in fact, meant little to Emerson; indeed his own emotional coldness (and that of his poetry) is generally regarded as one of his major shortcomings. Emerson himself often felt uneasy at the thinness of his own emotional life, but he was never moved actually to do anything about it.  </p>
<p>In addition, the intuition he championed is an intuition educated and disciplined by a constant, hyperattentive inspection of one&#8217;s own mind. </p>
<p>Winters version of Emerson is a caricature&#8211;and a caricature of someone other than the actual Emerson to boot. (A superb caricature of the actual Emerson can be found in Melville&#8217;s The Confidence-Man.) As it happens, I read a piece yesterday&#8211;courtesy of Arts &#038; Letters Daily&#8211;that suggests to me where Winters may have gotten his pseudoEmerson: from John Dewey. The piece is also a good short intro to Emerson&#8211;or to a central aspect of his thinking&#8211;and I would recommend taking a look at it.:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_self_reliance.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_self_reliance.html</a></p>
<p>Emerson is fascinating to read (in part) because he is always struggling with his own ideas. His aphorisms are often misleading taken out of the context of his writing. His famous early essays&#8211;the Divinity School Address, Self Reliance, etc.&#8211; are themselves pretty one-sided but his journals never are and his best essays&#8211;e.g. &quot;Experience&quot;&#8211;are dizzying in their dialectical nimbleness. </p>
<p>In the long run, the master term in Emerson is not even impulse; it is power, the power of fresh life. Such power is the  ultimate quest of his famous self-reliance. This is what drew Nietzsche to him. (All of Nietzsche&#8217;s major terms derive from an Emersonian vocabulary, though Nietzsche sometimes confuses&#8211;as Emerson never does&#8211;power of self with power over others.) </p>
<p>Finally, Emersonian power of self  has many possible manifestations&#8211;see his Representative Men for a sampling&#8211;but in Emerson himself it took an almost exclusively intellectual/literary form&#8211;because that&#8217;s the sort of guy he was.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Kaplan</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-2071</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Kaplan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-2071</guid>
		<description>Cunningham&#039;s poem is actually a better refutation of the analytic/synthetic distinction than is Quine&#039;s &quot;Two Dogmas of Empiricism&quot;.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cunningham&#8217;s poem is actually a better refutation of the analytic/synthetic distinction than is Quine&#8217;s &quot;Two Dogmas of Empiricism&quot;.</p>
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		<title>By: George Wallace</title>
		<link>http://www.godofthemachine.com/?p=524&#038;cpage=1#comment-2070</link>
		<dc:creator>George Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=524#comment-2070</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this post, Aaron, which could not have been better timed for my own purposes.  I just received my copy of the new Thom Gunn-edited American Poets Project edition of Winters&#039; poetry yesterday.  I had planned on following your sound principle that one should not read &lt;i&gt;about&lt;/i&gt; a work without first having had a proper confrontation with the work itself, and then to ask you for more insight into Winters&#039; particular virtues.  You&#039;ve saved me the trouble of asking.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, having now read your post before digging deeply into the poems, I&#039;ve partially violated the sound principle just mentioned.  Mea culpa.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this post, Aaron, which could not have been better timed for my own purposes.  I just received my copy of the new Thom Gunn-edited American Poets Project edition of Winters&#8217; poetry yesterday.  I had planned on following your sound principle that one should not read <i>about</i> a work without first having had a proper confrontation with the work itself, and then to ask you for more insight into Winters&#8217; particular virtues.  You&#8217;ve saved me the trouble of asking.</p>
<p>Of course, having now read your post before digging deeply into the poems, I&#8217;ve partially violated the sound principle just mentioned.  Mea culpa.</p>
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